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Readers: ‘Bad’ teachers aren’t the problem
eSN readers take issue with the results of a recent poll on public education
On Dec. 15, we published a story about the results of an Associated Press-Stanford University poll that revealed 78 percent of respondents think it should be easier for school administrators to fire poorly performing teachers. Yet overall, the public wants to reward teachers, the poll suggested: 57 percent of respondents said teachers are paid too little, with just 7 percent believing they are overpaid and most of the rest saying they’re paid about right.
This polarizing story led many readers to weigh in with their own opinions. Some readers took issue with the public perception that it’s hard to fire bad teachers, while others argued that “bad” teaching is really a symptom of larger problems beyond a teacher’s control.
Here’s a sampling of what eSchool News readers had to say:
I feel the need to comment on the subject of how difficult it is to fire bad teachers, because I don’t understand where this assumption comes from. As a teacher in the state of Texas, we can be fired at any time for any reason. I have been teaching for 20 years and I don’t remember any school district ever offering tenure to anyone. I don’t think it exists in this state. We have to constantly prove our worth as teachers each day. Contracts are only 1 year at a time and even with a contract we don’t have much protection against job loss. I never see this information in articles that I have read about firing teachers.
I belong to a teachers union, but that has limited powers in this state. I am lucky because I work for a good school district that values its teachers, but not all school districts are that way. I hope that I can see future articles that have a more informed and balanced information about the situation in different states.
—Anonymous reader
***
Anyone who purports to be involved in education should know that nearly half of new teachers quit within 5 years of beginning their career. With half of new hires abandoning the profession, the problem is not getting rid of the bad teachers. The problem is convincing the good ones that there is any reason to stay in a profession where they can count on being treated like garbage by politicians, parents, administrators, and the press, and paid at a level only marginally higher than that enjoyed by a fry cook.
I have watched a number of very skilled and promising young teachers leave the profession in the ten years since I became a teacher. Many of them are doing quite well in other career fields, and I myself regularly receive offers of higher pay and better working conditions outside of the classroom. Although politicians and the press appear to be obsessed with blaming teachers and schools for all of the problems facing the U.S. economy and civil society, the simple fact is that teachers are expected to choose a life of poverty when they choose to become teachers.
Many of us do the job anyway, out of a strong moral conviction that educating children is the single most important calling a person can answer. However, for a society to expect that one of its most important functions will be adequately met by its most poorly paid members is more than misguided, it is insane.
—Christopher Dahle, 6th grade math and science teacher, Ortega Middle School, Alamosa, Colo.
6 Responses to Readers: ‘Bad’ teachers aren’t the problem
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bnicholssd
January 4, 2011 at 4:49 pm
I think “perceptions” regarding teacher pay is a very interesting discussion. Even in this study 57% say too little and 43% say enough or too much. Figuring in the margin of error it may approach 50/50, so which is it? The answer probably depends on your frame of reference, i.e. working middle class or social networking guru.
Research from payscale.com suggest average starting salary for starting teachers is 34K(sorry mr dahle, fry cooks only make 17K). Using the LA Unified pay scale, and keeping up with your continuing education credits, after 10 years you could be at 72K for working only the minimum amount of hours.
Sure, nobody is getting rich off these numbers, but if you also factor in free, or heavily subsidized, health care, an attractive retirement program and 3 months off in the summer, it is a pretty interesting package.
bnicholssd
January 4, 2011 at 4:49 pm
I think “perceptions” regarding teacher pay is a very interesting discussion. Even in this study 57% say too little and 43% say enough or too much. Figuring in the margin of error it may approach 50/50, so which is it? The answer probably depends on your frame of reference, i.e. working middle class or social networking guru.
Research from payscale.com suggest average starting salary for starting teachers is 34K(sorry mr dahle, fry cooks only make 17K). Using the LA Unified pay scale, and keeping up with your continuing education credits, after 10 years you could be at 72K for working only the minimum amount of hours.
Sure, nobody is getting rich off these numbers, but if you also factor in free, or heavily subsidized, health care, an attractive retirement program and 3 months off in the summer, it is a pretty interesting package.
the_hill1962
January 5, 2011 at 12:54 pm
Just as in any profession, there are some teachers that are overpaid and some that are underpaid for their specific amount of time and quality of work they put in. All averaged out, though, it is good pay.
It is funny that C. Dahle brought up the job of fry cook. At $7.50/hour, 5 days/week, that is $15.6K gross. As a teacher in TX, I gross less than 3 times that and I feel that the fry cook pay, in comparison, is better than my pay. Then again, I get a retirement package (hopefully, at least, TRS will be better than Social Security). I don’t get that “free/subsidized health care” bnicholssd is talking about but I also don’t have to work 52 weeks per year to get the $15.6K fry cook example.
I could work as a fry cook about 15 hours/day, 6 days/week 52weeks/year and get about the same paycheck as I do now. The way that TRS keeps reducing their retirement package, maybe Social Security would pay more after 30 years of working as a fry cook but could you imagine working 15 hours/day 6days/week 52weeks/year for 30 years?
Paying teachers on the basis of student achievement is not the answer, in my opinion. Some teachers are given ‘the best’ students while other teachers get stuck with remedial classes. Interestingly, the remedial classes have much larger class sizes than the advanced ones so that even widens the student achievement gap. Some teachers are given only one or two different subjects to teach and have a couple conference periods while some teacher may have 8 different subjects to teach and only one conference period. A “good teacher” will clearly have better student achievement with a better schedule.
I just don’t understand why teacher pay is NOT based on a combination of workload AND student achievement.
I agree with the anonymous reader that stated a teacher can be fired at any time for any reason. I, too, don’t understand where the original assumption comes from. Sure, college profession gain “tenure” but even they can be fired!
the_hill1962
January 5, 2011 at 12:54 pm
Just as in any profession, there are some teachers that are overpaid and some that are underpaid for their specific amount of time and quality of work they put in. All averaged out, though, it is good pay.
It is funny that C. Dahle brought up the job of fry cook. At $7.50/hour, 5 days/week, that is $15.6K gross. As a teacher in TX, I gross less than 3 times that and I feel that the fry cook pay, in comparison, is better than my pay. Then again, I get a retirement package (hopefully, at least, TRS will be better than Social Security). I don’t get that “free/subsidized health care” bnicholssd is talking about but I also don’t have to work 52 weeks per year to get the $15.6K fry cook example.
I could work as a fry cook about 15 hours/day, 6 days/week 52weeks/year and get about the same paycheck as I do now. The way that TRS keeps reducing their retirement package, maybe Social Security would pay more after 30 years of working as a fry cook but could you imagine working 15 hours/day 6days/week 52weeks/year for 30 years?
Paying teachers on the basis of student achievement is not the answer, in my opinion. Some teachers are given ‘the best’ students while other teachers get stuck with remedial classes. Interestingly, the remedial classes have much larger class sizes than the advanced ones so that even widens the student achievement gap. Some teachers are given only one or two different subjects to teach and have a couple conference periods while some teacher may have 8 different subjects to teach and only one conference period. A “good teacher” will clearly have better student achievement with a better schedule.
I just don’t understand why teacher pay is NOT based on a combination of workload AND student achievement.
I agree with the anonymous reader that stated a teacher can be fired at any time for any reason. I, too, don’t understand where the original assumption comes from. Sure, college profession gain “tenure” but even they can be fired!
sparker155
January 5, 2011 at 1:45 pm
Wow, 3 months off in the summer?!?! I have never witnessed this in all my years in education. The 10 weeks teachers usually have “off” in the summer months are filled with classes, professional develpment requirements, planning for the upcoming school year….or maintaining a second job to make ends meet.
sparker155
January 5, 2011 at 1:45 pm
Wow, 3 months off in the summer?!?! I have never witnessed this in all my years in education. The 10 weeks teachers usually have “off” in the summer months are filled with classes, professional develpment requirements, planning for the upcoming school year….or maintaining a second job to make ends meet.
Jessica Reeves
January 7, 2011 at 11:48 am
Dear bnicholssd,
I’m not sure if you are aware that teachers do not have “3 months off in the summer”. We are CONTRACT employees and only paid for our days of service. I spread out my income over 12 months instead of 188 days.
Do a little research before you hit the submit button.
Jessica Reeves
January 7, 2011 at 11:48 am
Dear bnicholssd,
I’m not sure if you are aware that teachers do not have “3 months off in the summer”. We are CONTRACT employees and only paid for our days of service. I spread out my income over 12 months instead of 188 days.
Do a little research before you hit the submit button.
mmin
January 10, 2011 at 4:18 pm
I am sorry to say that the pay scale numbers sure do not work for Texas. I have a masters degree and have been teaching for 25 years and am only just breaking 60K. I believe the public thinks teachers have all kinds of time off – but we do NOT get paid for the time we do not work. Also, we are required to have so many continuing education credits – outside of work hours – each year. Many teachers use their summers for that. Things are not always as simplistic as they seem. Sorry.
mmin
January 10, 2011 at 4:18 pm
I am sorry to say that the pay scale numbers sure do not work for Texas. I have a masters degree and have been teaching for 25 years and am only just breaking 60K. I believe the public thinks teachers have all kinds of time off – but we do NOT get paid for the time we do not work. Also, we are required to have so many continuing education credits – outside of work hours – each year. Many teachers use their summers for that. Things are not always as simplistic as they seem. Sorry.
the_hill1962
January 11, 2011 at 12:37 pm
I feel the need to post again.
It did not surprise me that there were negative responses about the “3 months off”. The time off in the summer is really 2.5 months max but lately there seems to be workshops that break it up so it is not a nice consecutive amount of time off. However, I am sure that there are some places that give teachers the opportunity to take these workshops immediately after school lets out or immediately before school begins. This reduces it to 2.25 months off. However, there are two weeks at Christmas (do many other jobs let you take 2 consecutive weeks off at Christmas time) AND 1 week off in the Spring (true, many jobs have a floating vacation that can be taken). This is an additional (3 weeks) 0.75 months. 2.25+0.75 is where we get the “3 months”).
the_hill1962
January 11, 2011 at 12:37 pm
I feel the need to post again.
It did not surprise me that there were negative responses about the “3 months off”. The time off in the summer is really 2.5 months max but lately there seems to be workshops that break it up so it is not a nice consecutive amount of time off. However, I am sure that there are some places that give teachers the opportunity to take these workshops immediately after school lets out or immediately before school begins. This reduces it to 2.25 months off. However, there are two weeks at Christmas (do many other jobs let you take 2 consecutive weeks off at Christmas time) AND 1 week off in the Spring (true, many jobs have a floating vacation that can be taken). This is an additional (3 weeks) 0.75 months. 2.25+0.75 is where we get the “3 months”).